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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2005.01.11 17:33:00 -
[1]
This is not a post about rebalancing any ships or other weapons besides projectiles. As you may or may not know projectile weapons had been given some love on the test server. The goal is to make projectiles "suck less" without turning them into the next flavor of the month. The plan is to give them a slight nudge here and there based on their intended role. I'd rather give multiple small nudges than boost them too much and have to nerf them. No one likes being nerfed. Basically what we've done is boost autocannons damage by 10% and their tracking by 20%, boosted artilleries damage by 15% and optimal range by 15% and finally boosted Howitzers damage by 15%. I've got some graphs for the more visually inclined that should help people grasp the changes.
A bit of explaination about the graphs is in order for people who haven't seen one of these before. These are damage over time by range taking in to account transverse velocity and sig radius graphs. I've used a transversal of 100 m/s and a sig radius of 400 (typical battleship numbers). In all cases short range/high damage ammo was used. The higher up the graph the line is the more damage the gun is doing. The further right on the graph you go the further the distance is from your target.
The first graph we will look at is the 1400mm Howitzer. This graph was generated with max gunnery skills but no ship bonuses. The graph has the same curves but larger/small number on the left if a Tempest is used or if we were looking at 720mm/280mm howies. We can see by this graph that the new 1400mm are doing more damage from 16km to 48km than the old ones did at peak damage. Damage peaks at aprox 30km. Hmm, that's all I have to say about that one.
Next is the 1200mm. Arties are not very popular currently but hopefully with the changes players will come up with ways to better utilize this weapon. Worth noting about this graph is that at 44km the new version is doing as much as the old one did at it's peak at 24km. That's 20% more damage than the old gun at that range. The new arties will perform at the level that prototype siege cannons are currently on TQ (second best non-faction meta type)
This next image is all the large guns together fitted on ships with a pilot that has 4 in all skills (except where 5 is a prereq) so you can see how they all compare to each other with bonuses applied. What I'd like to point out on this graph is how the new 1200mm are doing as much damage as the old 1400mm did albeit at slightly reduced range. The other item of intrest is how much closer the performance of 1400mm on a tempest is to the performance of 425mm on a Megathron while still using no cap.
Finally we come to the short range guns. 800mm are really autocannons but someone got fancy and named them repeating artillery to try and confuse me. The 20% increased tracking is a little hard to notice in the graph since I'm only using 100 m/s. I've created another graph with no damage increase and higher transversal so you can see how the tracking changes come into play.
This is the 800mm with only the better tracking applied. The transverse velocity for this graph is 500 m/s. The interesting thing to note about this graph is the guns are doing peak damage at 15km but optimal range is listed as 5k. This is because of the very long falloff and tracking is having a big influence on the damage. This type of thing isn't easy to visualize just by looking at the attributes tab of the show info window. My dream is to someday get lovely 3D graphs into a tab of the info window.
Finally we have all the short ranged high damage guns together in a one happy graph. Notice the new autocannons are better than pulse at close range and better than blaster at longer range.
I'm interested in hearing constructive feedback about projectiles and I hope this post clears up how the different guns work for some people. Like I said about the start of the post, I don't want to hear about the other weapons that are out there or about how this ship or that ship owns all the others. I know there are other things that could use tweaking here and there but for now this post is going to focus on just projectiles and other subjects will most likely be deleted from this thread because there are plenty of threads about those things already.
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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2005.01.11 17:34:00 -
[2]
OMG FIRST POST 
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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2005.01.11 17:37:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Valar CCP
I like all the pretty colored lines.
TomB felt I didn't use enough colored text.
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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2005.01.11 17:54:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tiammat Joreini
That last graph was done with 500 m/s transversal velocity as well right?
Nope, only the 800mm tracking example is 500m/s transversal.
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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2005.01.11 18:00:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Hakera
all looks nice, can you do some more graphs to show the 1400/1200 at 500m/s transversial, also what were the %hit to misses from your results at the various transversial velocities. It was the missing part that lowered the DoT so much oh and can you sling on the apoc with mega beam as well as the tachyon is the odd one out.
I figured I was going to get a lot more requests for graphs after I posted these. I'll going to hold off a bit and watch the thread a bit then let democracy rule with regard to any more graphs.
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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2005.01.12 11:33:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Heelay Ashrum
Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 12/01/2005 09:18:20
Edited by: Heelay Ashrum on 12/01/2005 09:17:41
Hammer, those graphs does not look bad, but it's sad to tell u that those graphs are worth nothing.
U wrote that those graphs was made considering stopped target ( 0 transversal velocity ) but the bigger problem with large guns ( expecially long range ) are bad tracking. your graphs tells that top dammage or 1200 and 1400 mm are at 24 & 30km far. in a real battle do u realy expect that npc ( or even pc ) stay looking u shooting? Or that those artillery are worth on that close range?
U should do those tests on a target having ~200m/s (a fast BS ) and probably u will see how those lines will change. Having a little dammage boost mean nothing if u are not able to hit.
Sorry, if i bashed u like that, i realy aprecyated your test and your try, but i still think that CPP shout consider traching issues more that pure dammage else those damned artillery will never be worth nothing.
As stated in the post those graphs were all created with 100 m/s transversal except for the tracking example which was at 500 m/s.
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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2005.01.18 15:07:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Hakera
well it would be odd if your tracking enhancers starting giving you negative tracking amounts - you slap him hard Hammer (oh and I want to see a fight on sisi between you and tomb, one of you proj, the other lasers) Im pretty sure TomB lubs his lasers and you hattesss them so balance might be in there somewhere...
TomB Cheatz 
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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2005.01.26 12:05:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Selim
Hey hammer, are you even reading this thread now? 
Yes I am still but I just got kinda busy lately and I hate making a post if it's not either funny or has some info in it. Yes, I'm still here though. I'm still looking at the weapons and thinking of ways to smite my evil Amarr slave lord.
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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2005.01.26 12:06:00 -
[9]
Originally by: ByBy Baby
When is this change going to be implemented?
I have fore one waited 6 month for any change, so I think some thing must happen now. Not 1-12 moths later. ItĘs long overdue as it is already. 
Next patch is scheduled for the 1st of Feb.
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